Toshiya BURRN! Interview

 

“It’s like a mirage, when I get close to it  the person I want to be gets away”
-Around that time, you could hear the response from overseas. With Withering to death in your hands, the movements from overseas became specific. Looking back to this album, How do you feel about it?  I think that in that era DIR EN GREY got a sophisticated shape.
T: Yes. My interpretation is that in VULGAR the songs were made with the heaviness of DIR EN GREY in the air. This time I think we wanted to use that heavy feeling while putting in some pop elements. That it wasn’t just a feeling of heaviness and darkness. In the middle of that weight, we were seeking a feeling of sprint. Somehow, I think we got such a thing to release in that time.
-I see. I think without VULGAR, withering to death wouldn’t have existed. In fact, I think that the songs which stand out are the ones you added the pop and melancholic aesthetic elements in their heaviness.
T: It could be seen as an extension of VULGAR but actually it spreads it in a lot of different ways. For me, the song which symbolizes Withering to Death is “C”. Because it’s a song that couldn’t be part of VULGAR. That rhythmical melody is something that it’s not in the previous album. Putting these melodies in this album, it made it not just heavy but also had a sublime feeling.
-It may be part of it as well but I think that the union of so-called heavy rock and visual kei in the proper sense of the word, made that this album had a complete form.
T: That may be true. A band in Japan, making that kind of material….in that album, I feel like we were able to rise to that point.
-While you were proud of the things you could do, it was good you could go overseas.
T: Yes, we were lucky.
-In May 2005 you flew for the first time to Europe and got great success in the one man show in Berlin. However, looking back at that time, it was said that the band might have disbanded without the experience lived in Europe. In other words, is it possible that once completed an album with such a sense of pride it became difficult to see the path to follow?
T: In some way, it was like that. But, it was like that after every album not just Withering to death. However, without doubts it’s because this album was able to jump out from Japan that we could go overseas. Also, performing in such a big festival like ROCK AM RING in Germany….it was an unprecedented response, isn’t it?
-Yes.  You could say you could treat it as something extraordinary.
-However, the first performance in Berlin which tickets were sold out the same day they were put on sale, became such a chaos that even police and ambulances had to come. Also, the ROCK AM RING experience was bitter. Your performance was too early.
T: Also, people who came to watch the one-man performance were the ones in the front row. Well, I can only say it was crazy. Maybe it was good because from that point I started to think about a lot of things. Personal things but also band related. In a sense, it was a wrong guess but I thought that this would become the future standards of the band. Well, it felt like everyone was like “let’s think about what we should do to get here”. There was such a feeling. But of course, I don’t mean that we talked about that openly.
-You didn’t have a talk about that?
T: We didn’t. However, I think that is something that each of us felt in our skin.
-Then, the response to all this was THE MARROW OF A BONE?
T: That’s it. If that was going to be our basic activities, the answer to that basic should be that, isn’t it? Until then, we were only active in Japan so we thought it was good but, from that moment it seems like we had to do something that make more people listen to us. It is safe to say we made that album with that consciousness​.
- So, when you were thinking about making a worldwide compatible album, the result was make it heavier.
T: Yes. I felt like we started to make songs with an emphasis in overseas from this point.
-It seems that’s the most remarkable thing in this album. It was like a reflection of your daily experiences when you were touring together with KORN and DEFTONES at THE FAMILY VALUES TOUR.
T: I agree. Now I can say it daringly but when we went out to play festivals with Withering to death there was a part of me that thought it was too light. In fact, I thought about making it lighter but in the end, it was too light. Naturally, it was not only playing in festivals, we also got the chance to play with several people. At that time everyone said so, but I did not want to become a festival band. Festivals are exciting but I didn’t want to be a band that can’t play their own shows. It might be that I felt that we were going to become a festival band.
- I see.  Recently, more bands are performing overseas and moreover, domestic festivals are increasing, so I think that a lot of bands must be feeling what you felt that time.
T: I agree. It’s not bad to get excited about it and be like “let’s do this together”. However, I think you can’t truly transmit the virtue of a band in a festival. Especially as we go abroad as a “Japanese band”. It would be good not being simply a “Japanese band”. The bands that get utterly excited, once there, are most likely to rot. Of course, it’s better to get excited than not at all. But as expected, while you are looking for it, at that time I thought it would leave scars on Dir en grey’s stuff. I thought that something was wrong. Probably everybody thought the same.
-So, based on the response of foreign people, the demand of heaviness, chaotic and the impact…. after taking all these things into account THE MARROW OF A BONE was done?
T: That’s is.  At that time too, we were starting to drop out the makeup. That was an answer that I thought a lot. It feels like it was a part of following the natural flow of the things. We were doing festivals overseas and at the time of THE FAMILY VALUES TOUR we were about one month and a half playing almost every day. So, make up became something unpleasant. It was problematic. I thought that is how KISS should had felt in the past (laughs) It was simply troublesome, it was like “In Rome, do as romans do” that’s important too right?
- The bands around you were standing close to the stage with nothing but their clothes on their back.
T: Of course, I don’t think that’s the best choice (laughs)At the time we joined these bands, we were doing our makeup and we had to do it by ourselves. It felt tiny.  After all, I thought it was impossible to make a world view without creating your own image. There, I tried not to feel like that. I wanted to compete with the power of 5 people. After all, I think that it was that way because it was overseas.
-On the other hand, if you were able to make a good sound the response would be also good, so you didn’t hesitate to do it like them.
T: Yes, yes. Simply, I thought that I wanted to compete with them. Of course, there were also scary parts but at that point we just wanted to try to play. I think that is what all members were thinking too. Because the band seemed to need it, that’s the direction we were all heading.
- Although THE MARROW OF A BONE might had had the power to leave a deeper mark as a work, on the other hand it may be a bit weak in terms of the identity of DIR EN GREY. This is something that I can’t help feeling right now.
T: That’s right. That’s why the next one UROBOROS was like a reaction to that. In that sense, THE MARROW OF A BONE was just like GAUZE. GAUZE was our debut in Japan and THE MARROW OF A BONE has the imagen of being our debut album in an international level. Then, UROBOROS had the same position than MACABRE. That’s the way of interpreting it.
-In short, THE MARROW OF A BONE was like a collection of singles made for the United States. Just like GAUZE was also made of singles.
T: Yes, exactly.
-So it was like UROBOROS was created with the feeling of “we can do more than just that” that you had after releasing GAUZE.
T: That’s is. Inside me, I made such an interpretation. At the time GAUZE was release, in Japan we thought “let’s go ahead!”, the same thought at the time of THE MARROW OF A BONE.
-UROBOROS is an album with a heavy sense of building. Also, the title has a conceptual meaning. Did you feel that you made something that amazing?
T: In fact, not at all. Once it was released, the response we got was different that all we got before. I guess it was the first time I had that kind of feeling. Somehow, a lot of people started to tell us openly that it was amazing (laughs). I felt like always when we release something so I didn’t understand such reactions.
-Looks like “Why is everybody suddenly praising it?”.
-However, once this kind of response spreads too much, the next album becomes harder to do right? In short, it’s about  DUM SPIRO SPERO.
T: That’s it.
-In a sense, I think it could like a musical extension of UROBOROS but I think your motivation was totally different.
T: Yes.  When UROBOROS got an unexpected response everywhere we talked about making UROBOROS thoroughly rather than making a totally new album. Therefore…. that’s it. DUM SPIRO SPERO was digging deeper in UROBOROS. That’s the kind of image I thought.
-Once again, you could say that you made UROBOROS without that awareness. It just happened to hit the core, not that you intended to hit it.
T: That’s it. As it if were intentional, UROBOROS was like cultivated artificially.
-You might say that in the history of this band, it was like an unusual sequence….
T: Sure. It was the first time we did this sequence. Also about that time…. The Great East Japan Earthquake disaster happened. When something that not one could predict happens…..it might be a  really selfish interpretation but  that album was for us like a requiem itself. With the previous one UROBOROS we went to a dark world, so we just couldn’t pop up from there again.
-At the time of your debut, “pain” was your theme. It’s like a spirit of keeping this theme but also a need of engaged personally in this aspect.
T: Yes. That’s why a lot of our work is linked with the times. It happened when we were just recording. Then, the nuclear plant power problem came to light, all that during the production of the album. That’s why I have mixed feelings about the memories of that time.
- As a memory, it became an emotional work.
T:  Yes, really gloomy.
-You should have thought about your life more than before. At the same time, it wasn’t just a phase, the theme of “pain” won’t go away forever.
T: That’s it. No matter if the times change, “Pain” is a theme that doesn’t change as long as a person is alive.

In the past 20 years, while pursuing music as a goal persistently, there were also adverse effects from the down tuning to get sound pressure and heaviness. He also has dealt with the difficulties of his position as bassist with an innovative playing method. However, we talk about  even now he is like “I’m not doing 100% things that I want to do” or “Maybe I should have done more things because there are many”.

Text: You Masuda

Notes: This translation was honestly hard to do, not only for the technical stuff talk but also cause it was hard to translate all the feelings in Toshiya’s words as he seems to be doing an honest look to the past. Embrace yourself.

Being in touch with them since then, I started collecting data of DIR EN GREY for in an interview just before their major debut, around the end of 1998. Thereafter, interviews were made in various phases of them and I attended lots of concerts inside and outside the country. Through these times, I have the impression  Toshiya has continued polishing his personality as a stoic person. It’s not only that he is constantly pursuing high ideals all the times but also, he was aware of the things he lacked at certain points in time. There is no doubt of that. In fact, once I could heard from his own mouth the words “I want to be..” To do so, maybe he has first to fill what he is missing. As a result of this, how is the relation between the ideal him he is imagining now with his position? What about the band itself? One day in late july, we had this talk while I was accompanying them in the domestic tour “MACABRE”

-The tours that you have been doing with each album as a theme since last year is finally coming to an end.  How do you feel about facing Macabre again day after day?

Toshiya (from now T): It’s not really a stressful tour. This way of saying it invites misunderstanding (laughs) I feel it’s simple for the bass part. After all, it feels good to have regular tuning.

-The feeling is good. They are such some honest words.

T: But they are the first words that come from my mind. At the same time, when it comes to the band’s sound, it creates a comfortable feeling. Of course, low tuning is also ok.  Honestly, there are some parts that my ears can’t catch up with it. My own ears. I don’t understand the high pitch feeling very well too. Especially when at the same concert, the MACABRE songs with regular tuning mix with the low tuning songs of Dir en grey from the recent years, the situation  gets really chaotic inside my ears.

-So the subject now should be low tuning, does it make you feel uncomfortable?

T: Even if the performance feels good when it comes to my hearing part, it’s not always pleasant.  Speaking of unnatural, it gives me the impression of being artificial. When a concert is over, I always get the line recording of that day. I listen to it for reflection but even with that sound recording, you can clearly feel the difference, it’s awful. 

-Do you mean that that feeling you are saying is not only limited to the bass part but also to the whole sound?

T: That’s right. No matter what, the whole thing doesn’t come out clearly. On the other hand, the sound pressure is amazing. However, when I listen to the line recording I don’t know who is playing each part.

-How ironic is, isn’t it? If you want sound pressure, the other is sacrificed. If you want the missing clearness a priority, the sound pressure won’t be enough.

T: That’s it (laughs) Dir en grey has requested to increase the sound pressure. As for the band sound as a whole  the feeling as well as the power and dynamics are really good now. I think that each of us would say “if I do things this way, the band sound will get better” but because of our sound becoming a whole one, some parts that can be heard are disappointing.  After all, it’s in our ears when we are playing a live.

- It wouldn’t be possible to make all the songs with a regular tuning, though.

T: Yes. There would be some songs that could be applicable but if you do that, the atmosphere of them will change again.

-However, once the songs were played with regular tuning at a performance. The structure of your sound seemed to be clear again.

T: It really felt three-dimensional. I’m not saying that one is better than the other though.

- I also felt that specific difference that you mentioned.  This is my personal interpretation but, I think at the time you were making “MACABRE” you all were trying to push your own limits.

T: That’s it. Most definitely.

-I think you can feel the difference in those songs from that time, when you work with them now with your current experience. There are many parts where you can feel you all have growth.

T: That’s true. Back then, at the time we were making MACABRE…… first GAUZE was released, related to the next thing we would release, we were looking for some kind of break through for us. It’s still like that everyday though. So at that time, they weren’t many bands around approaching in that way, especially in the major field. That idea became the essential point of the album.

-So instead on continue GAUZE straight, again you should go further in your direction isn’t it? As a result of that, you put all in it…all the things and the circumstances of the band?

T: For me, MACABRE is an album that has a great connection to the present isn’t it? DIR EN GREY pop elements, the violent parts… even more the changes of rhythms. These elements are really present in the album. So due to the release of MACABRE, I remember that everybody was really worry about what to do with the next album.

-Because you made that album.

T: Yes. It is said that there is a curse on the third albums* so we were exactly there. I remember we were under a tremendous pressure doing KISOU.

*I didn’t know what he was talking about but I did some research and found this article 

-When MACABRE was released I think that there was a vague feeling among fans that DIR EN GREY had made something amazing. However, in terms of general sales, truth is it didn’t reach GAUZE sales level.

T: Yes, they dropped.

- Then, was there a feeling of pressure for that?

T: Not really. Saying that the sales part wasn’t a part of the pressure would be a lie but I didn’t feel it very much at a personal level.  At that time, it was an honest idea (to make that kind of album).  Also, there wasn’t a basis yet, so we feel like we could do more things for the 3^rd album.

- If you could break the curse of the third album, from that point it’s like you would get wider possibilities?

T: Yes, yes. To get to the third album, even if the sales dropped, the work we did in the second, MACABRE, was necessary to spread ourselves like a wrapping cloth. It was like we went further we went before and the things we could do increased. Indeed, at that time there was a part where some things could be done but didn’t spread like a wrapping cloth. Doing that, we wanted to make the possibility of going even further and not only where we were at that point. If I think about that now, I feel it that way. After all, at the time we debuted the visual kei boom was totally unexpected.

- Seems like the last stand.

T:  Yes. It was that flow. But after all, that boom came to an end. Maybe no one wanted to say it, but that’s what I thought. I guess it was supposed to be like that, it was somehow obvious so we had to develop ourselves even more. Of course, we were not aware of that while we were doing it.

-It feels like you were preparing several extended terminals for later….

T: That’s it. It was like a sprout growing out. Even if you don’t know what kind of sprout is growing, at that time we only have those sprouts. It was like we must nourish and nurture them.

-Moreover, if you have several sprouts, you will be able to choose among them.

T: Yes, yes, yes. MACABRE was that kind of album

- So it was like GAUZE wasn’t all you had to offer but in fact there was also some sense of pride in it (in MACABRE). At the same time, you had to develop a sense of identity if you wanted to survive as band isn’t it?

T: I think it would have been useless otherwise. In MACABRE we managed to develop it somehow so right after its release,  we had to worry about what we were going to do after it, that was KISOU.

-These words might not sound good but I think that KISOU was a work that made me feel like it was a time of excessiveness.

T: That’s it. In MACABRE we mixed several elements as we pointed out before, we could go beyond our limits. Although we were able to do it, there were some things that we weren’t able to try to do so there was some self-awareness of that in ourselves. Then, when the time of “what we are going to do next” came regarding KISOU, there was discussion about trying to push the band limits a bit more.

-Do you mean to make it closer to the image you had as a live band?

T: That’ is. If you keep track on DIR EN GREY albums,   it’s very easy to understand. We repeat the flow of doing something that breaks with what we have done previously. At that time, we were following that pattern too, not going forward straight. With creating new things, we were trying to be faithful to the part that was us as a band at the same time we were doing more progressive things.

-So you were seeking to build a sense of totality in your work. And then repeat the pattern over again.

T: There were lots of times like that.

-After doing KISOU, several tours came and the answer I got from them was shaped into SIX UGLY.  Did you release it with the intention of soften the impact that would cause VULGAR?

T: That’s it.  At the time of SIX UGLY, we had the feeling of putting in it just songs that could work in a live. Songs that have a direct connection and we wanted to play it live. It felt like while we were creating a sense of unity with the audience, we were creating things that make us feel good. However, it wasn’t enough to make an album so we thought it would be a mini album instead.

-That concept was established and  it’s something that has increased in the recent years around the world, creating works in EP (Extended play). So you could say that that first EP of yours was like the start of this trend.

T: Yes, maybe.

-In the case of  VULGAR, did you have any clear image of what  you wanted to create before hand?

T: At the time of VULGAR, “heavy” was set as the main theme of it. It was something we started in our indies era in MISSA, a kind of dreadful feeling. Driving into those elements, it was like using them as a transitory elements as a Japanese band. That was the atmosphere.

- At that point, it was like the culmination of that flow you were following, but I also think that it was like a phase of setting yourselves. Then, since that album came out, there were some moments that the direction of the wind started to gradually change.

T: The parts that changed were a lot.  It also changed the atmosphere of the concerts. I think it’s fair to say the circumstances that surrounded Japanese bands about that time were  chaotic.

- Were there a lot bands in transition?

T: I felt it that way.  A lot of bands were in the process of claiming their individuality. Maybe at the same time, I think that each of those bands had more personality than now. Even if there are many heavy and intense bands, inside the heaviness there were bands that used some elements and other bands that used different elements. In that sense, it felt like there were several branches inside the genre.

- It’s like in the royal road to heavy rock there is sense of distance, different to each one.

T:Yes, yes. We wanted to stand out in the best place we could fit in. Around that time too, bands that appeared about the same time than us were at that point too. Now it’s already an old word but at that time “nu metal” started to appear as a concept. Bands that followed the stream of KORN or LIMP BIZKIT started to rise. It was an interesting moment. In short, there was something new and stimulating in heavy. Until then, all I had heard of heavy was a bit old fashioned so in contrast, when this happened (nu metal) there were more and more moments of “oh! what is this?” I think VULGAR was our response to this era.

- Did you disagree at any point about heading towards a heavy direction?

T:  I didn’t. From that point, we started to low our tuning rapidly. However, as a bass player, it was like entering in a really dark era (laughs)

- For you, it was like a time that you felt like you were groping in the dark isn’t it?

T: Yes. By tuning down, the guitars are playing in the bass range. When that happened, I didn’t know where my position would fit the best (as bassist), so I was worried. “Should I lower it even more?” but when you do this, my sound becomes invisible.

-You didn’t know what to do with that gloomy bass sound, seems like it could turn out badly.

T: Yes,  that’s why…..maybe these words sound bad but at that moment I think I just gave up a bit inside me.

-Even now if a bassist wants to play heavy rock it’s like he must be resigned to that fate, right?

T: Yes. There was a part of me that told me so. But at that point, the big deal was more about what we were going to do as a band rather than what I was going to do myself. As band, which direction would we take? What we were going to be? Thinking about it, when it comes to my playing, there is a moment in which I had to throw away my ego. As for the band sound, I had to think about how to integrate my position in it better.

-If you were a band with just one guitarist, probably the circumstances would have been different, right?

 T: I agree. But of course, that’s a great plus too. When you make songs lowering the tuning you can create a unique atmosphere that can’t be created with regular instruments, so after all in that part we were hand on hand and our imagination spread. Aww, I feel like I shouldn’t say these things (laughs) At that point, I was really drawn into it. I thought that our range was getting wider. 

T: We were in a circumstance that we couldn’t understand well, the feelings were really strong. It was really shocking we could even go to these places. And play in front of these people. Besides, it wasn’t just the kind of people we were used to have around. There was a point I was frightened to death*. I even asked myself “why?”.

*He uses “気が動転する” which can be translated as “being frightened to death” or “losing your mind for something shocking”.

T: Yes, yes (laughs) Until then, I wasn’t really interested if someone said this or that but at that moment there were people that I thought “Wasn’t this person a hater?”* when they approached. Well, they could had save the time and effort of coming (laughs) It was a strange feeling.

* He uses “ アンチ “ which can be anti, hater, anti-fan.

-It might be the kind of thing that happens when you make something extraordinary.  From the position of us, the people, it was like “DIR EN GREY has finally dropped a monster album” (laughs) Bands don’t usually get to create a monster when they are trying to.

T: Yes.  Baseball players are often asked how they felt when they hit a home run and they answer that they didn’t feel anything. Just hitting the core, naturally and quickly they stretch to hit the ball. It was close to that feeling. We made an album and put it out like before but it seems like we hit the core and the response we got around was like “Why?”.

Zdroj:https://thepriceofbeingaroseisloneliness.tumblr.com/post/166188921837/toshiya-burrn-interview-12-3